21 July, 2006

Anti-Israel Vs. Anti-Semite Vs. Isolationist

Or...here's how I see it.

Anti-Israel

The State of Israel is not a legitimate nation-state worthy of recognition.

and/or

The State of Israel's battles are its own problem, stemming from their insistence on occupying sought-after lands.

and/or

The State of Israel is committing war-crimes

Anti-Semite

Jews are inherently evil.

Jews committ atrocities--anything from making matzah with the blood of Muslim & Christian Babies to helping plot 9/11--to advance their own world agenda.

Jews are exploiting the holocaust to inflame world opinion.

Isolationist

You think that battles not directly affecting the U.S. are not our business.

----

I can understand being Anti-Israel, and I can understand Isolationism. I think both are tolerable positions. But I have a real problem with anti-Semitism. And I don't like it when people are incorrectly labelled as Anti-Semites because it kills all legitimate conversation about the U.S. role in Israeli conflicts.

I do wish, however, that those who take Anti-Israel and Isolationist positions would kindly leave the Anti-Semitic rhetoric at the door. Because you and I can never have a productive conversation while I listen to irrational libel of the Jewish people. Thank you.

30 Comments:

At 3:50 PM, July 21, 2006, Blogger Sarcastro said...

Semites are peoples who speak Semitic languages; the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians. In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah's eldest son. The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine.

Present day speakers of Semitic languages are as diverse in physical, psychological, cultural, and sociological characteristics as are speakers of Indo European languages. The most prominent Semites today are Arabs and Jews. They are different in many ways, and they have absorbed a variety of European traits through centuries of migration and trade. The origin of Semitic languages, however, and many similarities in the stories of Islam and Judaism reflect a common ancient history. (from some website).

Use of the term "anti-Semite" not only implies the user is not familiar with the term they are using , but also prefers to employ it as a way to demonize the opponent and kill the discussion.

So, does that make me an anti-Semite, because I don't care if the Arabs and Jews kill each other off, or just an Isolationist?

 
At 4:22 PM, July 21, 2006, Blogger Kat Coble said...

Yes, I know the textbook definition of "semite" and I know the anti-Semitism can refer to anyone who is anti= [any semitic people].

But you and I both know, I presume, that the colloquial definition of anti-Semitism refers to a specific bias against Jewry.

As for your position on the situation I would consider it Isolationist.

 
At 4:25 PM, July 21, 2006, Blogger Sarcastro said...

I also refuse to wear any Jewry. Still Isolationist?

 
At 4:29 PM, July 21, 2006, Blogger Kat Coble said...

Man, are you just BEGGING for me to call you anti-Semitic? Because in the year that I've "known" you, I think that the best diagnosis for you is probably misanthropy. Not that that's a bad thing, seeing as I'm such a misanthrope myself. ;-p

 
At 4:45 PM, July 21, 2006, Blogger Sarcastro said...

That was more of a rip on our Negro brethren, one of whom said to me at the jewelry counter one day, "They calls it Jewry because of the Jews."

I think she was implying that the Jews invented jewelry, though that may be wishful thinking.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jewry

 
At 4:47 PM, July 21, 2006, Blogger Kat Coble said...

It was also one of the dumb-ass things that Rose said on The Golden Girls.

A fact, which direct knowledge thereof, scares me.

 
At 4:56 PM, July 21, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anti-Israel

The State of Israel is not a legitimate nation-state worthy of recognition.

I'm thinking that this statement belongs in the Anti-Semite category, unless the person making it also thinks that a bunch of other nation-states are also illegitimate, and goes on about them at the same length and frequency that he/she goes on about Israel. In truth, I have never seen/read this kind of statement made about any state other than Israel, though those who make it base it on standards of being/action/law which many other nation-states would fail. Oherwise I think this is a good categorization.

And, Sarcastro, "antisemitism" is a word expressly (and approvingly coined about 150 years ago to refer to bias against Jews. The other meanings that "Semite" has are irrelevant. It's like "antidisestablishmentarianism", which refers to opposition to a particular political idea, and not to opposition to any ideology promoting doing away with any existing institution.

nm

 
At 5:29 PM, July 21, 2006, Blogger Sarcastro said...

"antisemitism" is a word expressly (and approvingly coined about 150 years ago to refer to bias against Jews

Coined by and approved by whom? I'm guessing that the rest of the Semites didn't get a vote.

 
At 7:13 PM, July 21, 2006, Blogger Lee said...

I'm quibbling here, so just give me the internet version of rolled eyes, but....

I always thought that antidisestablishmentarianism was the school of thought that opposed the concept of separation of church and state.

Like those who want Sharia law in Muslim parts of Canada, for example.

 
At 11:04 PM, July 21, 2006, Anonymous Chris Wage said...

That was more of a rip on our Negro brethren, one of whom said to me at the jewelry counter one day, "They calls it Jewry because of the Jews."

Ha ha i get it.. because black people can't talk.

 
At 11:24 PM, July 21, 2006, Anonymous Sarcastro said...

There you go making blanket statements of ignorance again, Chris.

The ONE black person that spoke to me about "Jewry", could speak just fine. She was not taught the difference. Much like some black folks say the word "axe" instead of "ask".

Or Brentwood biddies who say "warsh" instead of "wash" and the derivation "Warshington D.C.", as in, "We think Bob Corker is too dang liberal to send to Warshington."

Neither one can be considered universal to the group to which each belongs, but each is certainly part of a unique dialect that even the most corrupt officers of the hate-speech police must recognize.

Mispronunciations, apocryphal definitions and general malapropisms may seem to you like an inability to talk, but they clearly show the rest of us that the education system has a long way to go before we can rest easy on our morally superior laurels.

 
At 12:30 AM, July 22, 2006, Blogger Short and Fat said...

Word.

 
At 2:12 AM, July 22, 2006, Anonymous Chris Wage said...

My bad.. I must be thinking of someone else that said "That was more of a rip on our Negro brethren"

Unless, of course, that was a completely incidental observation you happened to be making concurrently

 
At 5:21 AM, July 22, 2006, Blogger thehomelessguy said...

What bothers me is the immediate jump to "that's anti-semitism" for ANY criticism of Jews individually, or Jews corporately, such as in their "suedo-nation state."

And I've never heard anyone say that Israel is not a true nation, although I hear many many people claim that Palestine is not a true nation. I imagine the latter provoked the former.

 
At 8:18 AM, July 22, 2006, Anonymous Sarcastro said...

Yes Chris, my Negro brethren sometimes speak in a dialect called African Amercian Vernacular English, or AAVE. Sometimes it is called Black English Vernacular, or as you may be familiar with it, Ebonics. It is a documented ethnolect and sociolect as well.

In neither the specific anecdote of mine or in general,do I say they speak bad, just different. I can see how you would characterize "different" as "bad".

 
At 11:14 AM, July 22, 2006, Blogger thehomelessguy said...

Such a mind that Sarcastro has, AAVE - ethnolect and sociolect ? And he's a construction worker by trade? Amazing!

 
At 12:41 PM, July 22, 2006, Blogger Kat Coble said...

Okay. That's it. I've held my tongue. And now I'm not gonna hold my tongue any more.

Kevin, this is twice in one week you've disparaged other people. First, you disparaged ALL Nashville Bloggers, among them ACKleinheider (who happens to have a degree in Political Science) for having opinions.

And now you disparage Sarcastro for being a "construction worker" who has an education.

You realise there are about 50 comebacks to a comment like that that any one of us could make, beginning with your chosen profession.

The dirty secret about jobs in America is that there are a lot of really smart and well-educated people who are also smart enough to know that they don't depend on their job for their identity. That means you can't always tell by a person's job how much education or erudition they have. That's the card you ALWAYS play. "Don't judge the homeless by your previously-held misconceptions." Yet now, twice in one week, and once here in the comments of MY blog you've decided to do exactly that. You are judging people's abilities based on their "station".

Oh, and in case you care to know, Sarcastro's right about AAVE. But don't take my word for it. I'm a freelance writer and graphic designer. That of course means that I'm not very smart at all.

 
At 5:16 PM, July 22, 2006, Blogger dailydiablogger said...

Kathryn. I cried and cried today because I didn't see you at the blogger's meeting. I'm still crying, in fact. I know, totally unrelated.

 
At 5:18 PM, July 22, 2006, Anonymous Sarcastro said...

This Kitty's got claws.

Don't forget my PoliSci/History double degree with an emphasis on Languages and sadly, Soviet Foreign Policy.

When the Berlin Wall came down, I should have known I'd wind up in the demolition business.

 
At 5:28 PM, July 22, 2006, Blogger Kat Coble said...

This Kitty has claws, which are apparently slicing into her left kidney.

Thus both the short temper and the absence from civilised company @ Mothership.

 
At 6:08 PM, July 22, 2006, Blogger Jon said...

I would nitpick that what you call "isolationism" should be "anti-interventionism". "Isolationism" implies additional beliefs in closed borders, restricted trade, etc. So paleoconservatives are isolationists, libertarians are not, yet both are anti-interventionists.

 
At 2:41 AM, July 23, 2006, Anonymous Chris Wage said...

To be clear, my swipe was not aimed at the existence of a sociolect, just a casual one at the poking fun of it.

I am the fun police.

 
At 7:40 AM, July 23, 2006, Anonymous Sarcastro said...

I knew it!

 
At 3:15 PM, July 23, 2006, Blogger Don Matterhorn said...

The State of Israel's battles are its own problem, stemming from their insistence on occupying sought-after lands.

and

The State of Israel is committing war-crimes.

Very true! if you don't like it, pass the blame.

 
At 4:02 PM, July 23, 2006, Anonymous Sarcastro said...

Got any pictures?

 
At 6:29 PM, July 23, 2006, Anonymous Chris Wage said...

Oo!! Oooo! Pick me! Pick me!

 
At 1:41 PM, July 26, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

thehomelessguy said...
What bothers me is the immediate jump to "that's anti-semitism" for ANY criticism of Jews individually, or Jews corporately, such as in their "suedo-nation state."
And I've never heard anyone say that Israel is not a true nation, although I hear many many people claim that Palestine is not a true nation. I imagine the latter provoked the former.

I didn't mean to post and run. But things got buuuusy at work at the end of last week, and I'm just now digging out. But I would like to respond to this. I think that calling Israel a "pseudo nation-state" is itself an example of denying that it is a true nation. And I have heard others besides you deny it: the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Arab League, all those folks. It is at the base of their (and your) claim that the state is illegitimate. Unless you are going to apply the same standard of legitimacy to other national groups/states, I think there's more going on than just objecting to the country's policies.

Sarcastro, no Semites, however defined, were involved in coining the term "antisemitism." It was coined in the 1880s in Germany (antisemitismus) and shortly thereafterby adopted into English, to describe hatred of and belief in the inferiority of Jews. The people doing the coining were ethnic Jews and British. If you want to complain that the coiners were being anti-Arab in not using it to describe their presumable hatred of Arabs as well, take it up with them--but I assume that you already know all this, and are merely being contrarian.

And Lee, no rolled eyes, but "antidisestablishmentarianism" was coined back in the 1890s as well (evidently a big time for "anti-" coinages), also in England, to describe opposition to the movement to disestablish the Church of England. (The antis were successful in that case, and England still has an official religion.) You can use it loosely to refer to any support of keeping state and religion close, but only in a joking sort of way.

nm

 
At 7:30 AM, July 31, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm Semite at the same time I'm an Anti-Israel. whatever you chatting about guys, Israel is a stick in the world's Ass it should be erased forever it's the only way for world's peace. check the history guys get a map before 1948 and u'll find nothing called isreal !!!

 
At 10:38 AM, August 02, 2006, Blogger Chance said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 3:06 PM, October 11, 2007, Blogger Reason over religion! said...

There are a lot of Israelis that disapprove of hard-line right wing Israeli policies just as there are many Americans that disapprove of hard-line right wing American policies. I think it would be disingenuous at best to refer to them as being Anti-Israel or Anti-American, respectively.

The assertion that believing “The State of Israel's battles are its own problem, stemming from their insistence on occupying sought-after lands.” constitutes an Anti-Israel position is not at all fair.

 

Post a Comment

<< Home