27 February, 2007

J.L. Kirk & Associates: My Story

Feel free to skip to the end for the juicy stuff...


JL Kirk & Associates found my husband's resume online. They contacted him a couple of weeks ago and offered their services as an 'Executive Placement Firm'. As I'm wont to do, I of course Googled them as much as possible and found very little in the way of solid information. So I've decided to write up our experiences with them for anyone else who is interested in finding out more about this particular operation.

Anyone who has been searching for a job for any length of time is well aware of the various vulnerabilities that are part of the process. There's the self-doubt, frustration and impatience, coupled with no small amount of worry. So when a job searcher gets an email that says "maybe we can help!" the relief is almost immediate.

My husband filled out an application and questionnaire, and returned it directly to the company. He then received an appointment with a counselor the following week. During that appointment the representative of JL Kirk & Associates interviewed him just as one would for a position. The afternoon after the interview he received an email that congratulated him on making it through the first step of the process. They wanted to schedule a second interview which required my presence as a Support Person/Spouse/Significant Other. When he scheduled the interview he questioned them directly about their fees and payment arrangements. He was told that if we received approval after the second interview the money would be discussed at that time.

So today was the second interview, and we drove to Maryland Farms for our 2:00 appointment. We sat in a waiting room next to a fake fireplace and a lone man in a suit. At 2:11 a matronly woman came out and announced to the other man--in front of us--that she would not be able to meet with him because he wasn't able to bring his Support Person. They had a lengthy conversation in front of us about this failed meeting and his disappointment. He asked to speak with her behind closed doors (as would I) and then five minutes later that conversation ended with him leaving dejectedly. She then turned to us (it is now 2:17pm) and greeted us warmly.

We were led into an office that appeared to have been the result of a decorating war between a loan officer and an eccentric grandmother. The prototypical office furniture clashed with a giant print of Raffael's Cherubs a reproduction oriental rug and a handmade mosaic table with a tilted top. The Husband and I were seated in two chairs across from the interviewer, who sat on a sofa next to a pile of throw pillows.

Here's where the fun starts. We heard all about how hard it is to find a job, how most jobs aren't posted online and are only found through networking. We heard about how the really good jobs are available only to those 'in the know' and can only be obtained through some wizardy combining Masonic handshakes, good dentistry and whatever pixie dust this particular company stores in the backroom. This interview seemed very carefully designed to exploit every potential vulnerability that any jobseeker feels. After about 10 minutes of conversation subtly designed to push every button we may have, the interviewer handed us a booklet that was said to be a tailored write-up of my husband's profile as a job-seeker. The interviewer left us alone in the room to digest the booklet on our own terms.

The booklet consisted of three pages of reiteration of the interview's strong-arm tactics, followed by a regurgitation of information from my husband's resume, all summarised with a couple of pages essentially saying "the job market is tough but we think you're really great and so we'll be here to help you get a job!" We skimmed the booklet and reviewed our game plan, then signaled the interviewer by opening the door.

Our game plan was to ask direct questions about the company's operation and placement record. In short, 'what exactly do you do and how well do you do it?' We had test answers in mind. In short, if we ask a direct question and get a vague answer such as "every case is different so numbers are hard to apply here" that tells us a great deal about the company's services.

Sure enough, our first question about placement rate was answered with an "every case is different, etc." style answer. Ultimately she gave us the figure of "90 to 92% placement rate" and then proceeded to tell us a long tale about a 'failed' client who showed up 37 minutes late to an interview with a CEO from an out-of-state firm. We all agreed that was indeed very unprofessional of said client and what a shame and how good to not work with him. (I of course was thinking about how we were on time for that interview which she failed to start until 17 minutes after the promised appointment time.)

She then gave us the very good news that they were prepared to accept us as clients. Then the fun began. We were told that Headhunters and Employment Agencies took fees only when a job had been secured for the job seeker, and they took their fees (generally 30-40%) from the hiring firm. But that means the job seeker gets a lower starting salary because all of their good money is going to the headhunter/employment agency. Thankfully, though, JL Kirk & Associates will be able to get my husband a job making a far larger starting salary. All we need to do is put $4,420 on a credit card today. Once we do that the entire weight of the firm of JL Kirk & Associates will begin the task of navigating treacherous shark-infested landmines of the job search on behalf of my husband. And just trust them, because they find jobs for 90% of the people who pay them to.

So that's how it works. And that's pretty much how we expected that it would work. But both the spouse and I believe that it's irrepsonsible to not pursue any lead during this time so we thought we'd go through the process. Especially since they kept so much of it in the dark from the outset.

JUICY STUFF BEGINS HERE
But I'm very angry about it. If you've made it this far, I suppose maybe you could tell that I've been supressing most of my irritation. However, irritation makes for good blog reading, and so here it is.

I get really ticked off at people trying to use fear to motivate others. I don't care if you are a fire-and-brimstone preacher, an insurance salesman, a used-car salesman or a cat burglar. Finding someone else's fear and vulnerability and using that vulnerability to somehow enrich yourself is a cheap and underhanded tactic. It's wrong and it's cruel. And I think that's exactly what this placement firm did to us today. There were times when I felt like I was sitting across from a spider. We were meant to feel at home enough to let down our guard so that the woman could then ply us gently with tales of terror. All of it was designed to make us hand over nearly $5,000 without question and without possibility of a refund.

The husband and I are not always idiots. We both expect to pay for services rendered from any provider. But we generally like to be treated as responsible adults. We had legitimate questions about the fee structure and we raised those at several points in the process. For them to not even discuss that fee structure until they had battered us emotionally for half an hour is what I would consider to be unethical. I'm sure there are other employment agencies and headhunters out there. We'll continue to look for them.

In the meantime, I would discourage anyone who stumbles across this entry from even going through the JL Kirk & Associates "interview process".

UPDATE

I should also mention that this company was formerly Bernard Haldane before it was purchased by Mr. Kirk Leipzig. One of the accusations against Bernard Haldane was that they would make an examination of the potential client's assets and charge accordingly. I find it interesting to note just how close our "fee" was to the tax refund we recently received. Hmmm. Makes you wonder, no?

164 Comments:

At 1:38 AM, February 28, 2007, Blogger Lynnster said...

Gosh. The part about HAVING to bring your spouse/support person with you made me edgy first, then when I got to the "All we need to do is put $4,420 on a credit card today" part my heart just sank.

I agree with you two's take that it would be irresponsible not to pursue all options and I know things are so tough right now. I am really hating you both had to go through this experience though, the tale really gives me the creeps, I hope things turn out okay VERY soon.

Continuing to send good karma your way and keep y'all in prayers.

 
At 6:32 AM, February 28, 2007, Blogger Slartibartfast said...

Damn.

This post makes me so angry, I swear I could resort to violence.

But then, I realise that this post will show up on a lot of Google searches. Much better than violence.

However, I still want to call Turko.

 
At 6:49 AM, February 28, 2007, Anonymous Sarcastro said...

Morons.

If only there was someone to warn you of such scams...
http://sarcastro.squarespace.com/journal/2006/7/26/the-big-store.html

 
At 6:50 AM, February 28, 2007, Blogger newscoma said...

I'm with Slartibartfast on this.
These "employment" are destroying northwest Tennessee.
It makes me so damned angry I can't think.

 
At 7:58 AM, February 28, 2007, Anonymous nm said...

You actually had a better experience than I was afraid of when I read the "you must bring your spouse" part. I was afraid you'd get home to find that thieves had cleared out your house.

 
At 8:20 AM, February 28, 2007, Blogger Kat Coble said...

Lynnster, thanks. I've really no doubt that things will turn out okay in the long run, and I thought this was pretty educational. Thanks for the prayers. We continue to need them.

Slarti--

With Google, sites that are updated more frequently usually appear very high in the search rankings, even if they're updated on a different topic. Because of that, this blog tends to have a very high placement in Google. Generally when I write an entry it comes in the top 5 for any search on the subject after a week or so. That's EXACTLY the one reason I wrote this entry. I'm pretty confident that anyone searching for either J.L. Kirk or JL Kirk will get this story on the TOP of their search pile.

Which is why I wish Sarcastro had used the name of the company (it's the same one, judging by the fake fireplace) in HIS blog entry. Dude, that would really have helped, because I did read it back in the day, but it didn't show up on my googling.

nc--
I spent most of last evening at alternating levels of angry. I decided that my best recourse was to first do this write-up for the Web and then contact the State's Attorney General. Since we didn't actually spend any money we may not be a valid complainant according to the AG's office, but I think we have enough to warrant a registered complaint based on deceptive business practices, misrepresentation and fraud. I find the fact that the amount we were asked to pay so neatly coincides with our tax refund (which is a matter of public record) very suspicious.

nm,
I hadn't actually thought about that one. Given the way these crooks operated it wouldn't have surprised me, though. Hubs thinks I'm a bit nuts but I asked the interviewer flat-out if the turn down of the other guy in the lobby was staged for our benefit. It seemed like the kind of thing con artists like these would do.

In doing more reading about these clowns I found a couple places where it is alleged that the "JL" in JL Kirk actually stands for "Jesus is Lord". That really burns my butter.

 
At 8:52 AM, February 28, 2007, Blogger Kerry Woo said...

I'm curious to know if bringing a spouse/support person was designed to have the second person apply "pressure" framed in a question such as "You do want your husband to succeed right?"

In this case, having your support and additional discernment only made things better - and it's always good to have a extra person to sniff out a con... hang in there!

The best is just around the corner; stay strong; honorable people act honorably and stand firm for what is honorable. I'm praying for a great outcome!

 
At 8:56 AM, February 28, 2007, Blogger Ivy, the Great and Powerful said...

I suspect the having the support person there is to make it harder for the person to sue when they don't find them a job.

I'm sorry you had such a crappy experience, those people are bastards.

 
At 8:58 AM, February 28, 2007, Blogger Kat Coble said...

Kerry & Ivy, you're both right.

There were questions directed at me designed to help me as the insecure wife put more economic pressure on The Husband. Didn't work. I'm proud of the husband and not all that frightened. I WAS mad that they tried to pull that tactic, though. Like he's not under enough stress already.

And there's also the obvious legality of our not having an out with the credit card company to dispute the charges.

 
At 9:33 AM, February 28, 2007, Blogger Malia said...

The "support person" scenario is a sleazy recruiting tactic. MLM's like Amway do it all the time. If the person they are recruiting is married/engaged/in a long-term relationship, they try to get the recruit to sign their significant other up as well and be "partners". Or they try the scare tactics by making sure the significant other knows just how much potential the recruit has and if they don't support them then they are destined to fail. We had a disturbing experience with that at the beginning of our marriage. I can't really give details because the recruiters in question are also family members and I don't want to embarrass them on the Internet!

I'm so glad you went through the interview and sniffed them out and then posted about it. Undoubtedly it will help countless others out there who are being "recruited" by them!

 
At 9:35 AM, February 28, 2007, Blogger ceeelcee said...

If they thought bringing the "support person" along would make you all easier to intimidate, methinks they miscalculated.

Fuggem.

 
At 9:42 AM, February 28, 2007, Blogger Kat Coble said...

I really don't think they reckoned on the dread coupling of an organisational analyst and a poker-playing skeptic.

 
At 9:54 AM, February 28, 2007, Blogger Slartibartfast said...

I've got people

 
At 10:33 AM, February 28, 2007, Anonymous Lesley said...

In doing more reading about these clowns I found a couple places where it is alleged that the "JL" in JL Kirk actually stands for "Jesus is Lord". That really burns my butter.

My thought was that he inverted his name/initials so it sounded less ethnic (for lack of a better term). Either way, it's sleazy. I hate people who use Jesus as a marketing tool.

 
At 12:55 PM, February 28, 2007, Blogger Exador said...

Reputable headhunting firms are paid by the employer. As you have discovered, anybody that wants money from the employee is scamming you.

 
At 4:26 PM, February 28, 2007, Anonymous Sarcastro said...

Perhaps "morons" was too harsh.

I linked to them, rather than naming them, because they didn't actually put the arm on me for money. After the "bring your Special Other" directive, I figured it was a scam and decided not to go back for the part where they try to separate me from my money.

Plus, Paramount has their legal team enforcing a ruling that says I can't use the nam "Kirk" without their written consent.

 
At 4:56 PM, February 28, 2007, Anonymous sistasmiff said...

And this is legal?

 
At 4:57 PM, February 28, 2007, Blogger Kat Coble said...

Barely.

Vaguely.

Maybe not.

Hence my decision to take it to the Attorney General's office.

 
At 6:23 PM, February 28, 2007, Anonymous Sarcastro said...

It is legal. The same way Bill Heard sells cars is legal. Ethical is another matter.

JL Kirk sends you on interviews you could have set up yourself by reading the want ads. The tricky part is they get you to buy into their bullshit about their exclusive access to "high level decision makers".

They are selling perceived value. Some marks are smart enough to see through the scam. Judging by their Maryland Farms address, there are plenty more who aren't.

 
At 10:47 PM, February 28, 2007, Anonymous elizabeth said...

so, I'm curious as to what they do to shake down a single person..... or do they not bother with single people?

 
At 11:19 AM, March 01, 2007, Blogger Michael said...

So let me ask a question...as a single person who isn't in a significant relationship, would they work with me? Or would my lack in that area keep me from being a client?

I just wonder....

If the hubby wants to network and find those elusive jobs, he might be better served to try the Career Transition Support Group over at Brentwood United Methodist. IT's a free service/ministry to anyone looking for a job. It meets on Monday evenings and has a useful network of contacts who are open and amenable to networking and helping one find those unadvertised jobs. It's a great resource and one I used in my job search.

 
At 12:07 PM, March 01, 2007, Anonymous Sarcastro said...

No, if you have an Important Other, they want them there to torpedo your possible objections regarding a huge financial decision. Like handing over all your cash to them in exchange for a job.

Closing this kind of deal requires the closer to eliminate the "Gee, I better talk this over with my wife, as this is a major financial decision and all" excuse.

 
At 12:35 PM, March 01, 2007, Blogger Kat Coble said...

You also can't underestimate the power of shaming one Support Person in front of the other.

They had a really inelegant implimentation of it, but it was still there.

Questions like "Katherine, would you finally have peace of mind if [husband] had a real job with a stable company?" were just too rich for words. They not only slammed my husband's [very real] previous jobs but also implied that he was crap at taking care of me.

I can see a lot of men ponying up $5K like some type of way to barter back their manhood.

 
At 10:48 PM, March 01, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oddly enough I received a brash phone call from an Executive Assistant calling for the local VP of J.L. Kirk & Associates demanding I set up an interview. I asked "this is in reference to....." her reply," he(the VP) has your address and pharmaceutical experience circled and told me to call you".
Now I know the rest of the story...
Thanks. T in OKC.

 
At 12:17 PM, March 04, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i am trying to figure out what has "steamed" you so much. Their business line is career counseling...you were put through their process and you didnt sign up..so why the consistent badgering....i dont see anything wrong of what they are doing...i think you have way too much time on your hands...this is what is wrong with the morality of America...maybe you can sue them? maybe you can ruin their image? I guess this would make you sleep better at night eh?

 
At 11:12 PM, March 04, 2007, Anonymous tom said...

kath,

I'm so happy that you recounted this experience. More than once I've been conned into amway pitches and the like. This sounds like the worst kind of people. I would also object to being summoned as someone's significant other. Like many other people said, it seems illegal since marital status isn't allowed to be considered when hiring someone.

Another item I thought about was the other end. If (and that is a BIG If) these clowns do have a 90-92 percent success rate, how are they getting these people placed? There must be some shady activity going on at the other end. Two possible scenarios, they could be bribing HR reps at other companies to hire their candidates, or they could be using religious guilt to get their "friends" to hire their candidates.

It's just bad news all around. I hope it all works out and you can get them to close up shop or retool their business practices, or get the AG to do it for them.

 
At 5:17 PM, March 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks so much for sharing! I just called and cancelled my so called interview with J.L. Kirk! It was so vauge I thought they were a "normal" paid-by-the-employer recruiter.

 
At 1:30 PM, March 16, 2007, Blogger Thankful said...

Thank you; thank you! I have an appt. with them on Monday. While searching for something about them on the web, I found your blog. You better believe that within 5 minutes, that appt. will be canceled! Thank you for preventing me from wasting my time and aggravation!! ZZ

 
At 1:31 PM, March 16, 2007, Blogger Thankful said...

Thank you; thank you! I have an appt. with them on Monday. While searching for something about them on the web, I found your blog. You better believe that within 5 minutes, that appt. will be canceled! Thank you for preventing me from wasting my time and aggravation!! ZZ

 
At 1:32 PM, March 16, 2007, Blogger Thankful said...

Thank you; thank you! I have an appt. with them on Monday. While searching for something about them on the web, I found your blog. You better believe that within 5 minutes, that appt. will be canceled! Thank you for preventing me from wasting my time and aggravation!! ZZ

 
At 1:11 AM, March 18, 2007, Blogger soyarma said...

I've tried to use headhunter companies to hire my employees, but every one of them has been a disappointment. Friends and family who have tried to use them in job searches have also been disappointed. Most of these places want to charge the employer 30% of the first year’s wage for placement. My personal opinion is that I wouldn’t want to work for a company that would pay that, as to them the employee is just a cog.

I can’t speak for all employers, but I can’t imagine a well run, financially responsible company paying that much money to get a new hire, unless they are very large, and then I would imagine that most would have their own hiring department – I can really only speak regarding small and mid-size companies.

When our company looks for new employees we use only two places, Craigslist and monster.com. Again, this is my personal opinion, but any company worth working for will be listed in one of those two places. If a job at a certain company is all inside networking and who you know, then it A, doesn’t seem like a really honest place to work, or B it’s a high level position that some headhunter company won’t be able to get you into anyway.

 
At 5:19 PM, March 19, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for the information. I did go on the initial interview today with J. L. Kirk and felt a bit suspicious when I was asked to return with my spouse. I will not go back.
A million thanks for the heads-up. I certainly would not have given them that amount of money but this blog has saved me time and gas back to to Brentwood.

 
At 12:18 AM, April 05, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

...so sad...nine years ago I was taken for $3,200 by the Bernard Haldane group(almost exactly my tax return for the year...they get this by asking for your current salary or gross income for the year). Their entire program boiled down to a "beautiful" resume, networking groups (made up of folks just like yourself without a job), and defining for reinserting yourself back into the job market.

...so I get the JL Kirk email last week and find myself driving to Maryland Farms. I sit down and the questions begin to ring with my experiences from the Haldane group. I stopped the interviewer in mid sentence to ask if I would pay or the employer who hires would pay...it was as if I had not asked the question...she blanked and said that we would cover that subject in the coming interviews if I were invited back to "participate".

Right... so I now know the gig is up...and go into a little two minute tirade about how the Bernard Haldane group had taken my money, crapped together a resume, and did nothing to help me find a job...in fact found a job on my own and had asked for a partial repayment...only to be laughed at by the Haldane crew.

If JL is Haldane...their reputation grows beneath their feet. She said,"Oh, some groups will do anything to help themselves while supposedly helping you"...LOL!

I have been invited back for meeting #2...I want to bring them so close to them thinking they are closing the deal and slap them with some junk about how immoral their business really is and that I'm considering bringing suit against the renamed JL for damages done under the Haldane name...I'll go on and on about how many people I know and how I will spread the word via mouth, blog, or sandwich board to let the world know of the coiled up injustice that lays in wait just inside the offices of J.L. Kirk.

Any creative ideas on how to shake the tree while in my second meeting are appreciated.

-Once taken, twice wise.

 
At 9:34 AM, April 07, 2007, Anonymous Eccentric Matronly Grandmother said...

In response to those who choose to hide behind pseudo names, anonymous postings, and Mrs. Katherine Coble herself, I will respond to the blog herein; I am the matronly, eccentric grandmother, with the tackily decorated office within J.L. Kirk Associates.

There is a cultural phenomenon regarding information regurgitated on the internet. It seems there is a segment of our techno-access population who believe; if the written word resides on the internet, regardless of platform or source, it MUST be true! This is a sad testament to our information starved population, who use the internet as their link to the outside world. This platform/blog typifies the “mob” mentality, so for that reason, I will address and defend the fabrications written herein.

For those who are unaware, the Bernard Haldane organization no longer exists in Tennessee or to my knowledge anywhere in the United States. This is a fact. Mr. Kirk purchased the remaining assets of the BH organization here in Brentwood, changed the philosophy, company mission, replaced every BH employee, and put his name of the door! Does this sound like a person who is hiding? As part of the purchase, he inherited the liabilities as well; unhappy clients who were hurt by former unethical practices he had no part in delivering. The price to appease those clients and put his business on the “moral” road to recovery was in excess of $154,000. Does this sound like a scammer? He was not ordered by any court or official, he did it to end the reign of BH and all the negativity.

I will now address. Katherine Coble’s accusations. It is important to know that when I met Mrs. Coble and her husband, neither was gainfully employed. Mr. Coble placed his resume on a free internet job site looking for employment. As a result of his resume posting, by his own admission Mr. Coble has received dozens of emails from the insurance industry, work at home, get rich quick, etc. (Had Mr. Coble accepted a position selling insurance for example, he would have had to pay for his own education, paid for his license, and waited for any possible compensation if/when he sold a policy.) Apparently these unsolicited offers are less offensive than a genuine offer of help – which I will address in detail further in this post.

During the initial interview with my colleague, it was mentioned that Mr. Coble is an avid cyclist and a member of a fledgling not for profit group. It is his hope to make this his career in approximately 2 years. With no motive other than to be helpful, my colleague put Mr. Coble in touch with a cycle/marketing person, name, telephone number and personal introduction. Further, Mrs. Coble was given a publishing contact as she is apparently an aspiring writer. In both cases, with no motive whatsoever, my colleague offered the contacts and use of her name – to the Coble’s, two perfect strangers! What was the result of the contacts? I have no idea (and as a simple gesture is irrelevant); however, it is not part of our job description to provide ANYTHING to individuals during a screening interview. I read nowhere in this blog where your hostess thanked my colleague for her kindness. None was expected, so it makes my colleague the bigger person.

Our business model provides that we are able to grant services to approximately 225-250 clients per year. A scam would know no limits as to the number of clients per year - as the goal would be to reap as many fees as possible. Despite the baseless accusations waged by Mrs. Coble, our company provides a service that no other company in Nashville provides! Our career management staff, coupled with marketing and networking staff FIND JOBS FOR OUR CLIENTS! FACT!!!! We routinely represent individuals who bring personal/professional challenges to their career search; history of job hopping, lack of education, extraneous education, poorly crafted resume, poor interviewing skills, lack of professional resources, inability to identify their skill sets, lack of focus and/or direction, to name a few. Our staff spends countless hours working with each individual client to make them more marketable. Each client and ALL their issues are tackled, one at a time. It’s laughable that anyone of medium intelligence would put ANY stock in the juvenile facetious rant (the really good jobs are available only to those 'in the know' and can only be obtained through some wizardy combining Masonic handshakes, good dentistry and whatever pixie dust this particular company stores in the backroom) And by the way, in Mrs. Cobles’ case, we would recommend (free of charge) to further her writing “career” she learn to spell “wizardry” and polish her grammar and punctuation skills. I make no apology for my skill (or lack of) as I never intend to make a living as a writer.

Do we charge a fee for what we do? Yes. There is only one method to conduct a career search that is free of COST; the internet, newspaper, church or friends/contacts to SEARCH ON YOUR OWN. All career development resources (beyond those mentioned) require an investment by the job seeker. It is a misnomer that there are companies who do not charge fees (commissions) paid by the employee. I will briefly explain.

Head hunters, recruiters, and employment agencies are commissioned sales organizations. Their commission is generally 20-40% of first year gross income. Commonly, the employer will write the check. However, ONLY at the very highest levels of employment (CEO, President, COO, CFO, etc.) does the company actually PAY for the service. For those below this level, the employee typically pays for the placement in a reduction of salary. Sadly, this reduced salary is compounded annually and the cost of placement assistance becomes astronomical beyond the initial commission. Apparently Mrs. Coble and her band of blind followers find no fault with the aforementioned company types WHO GET PAID.

Agencies of this type do not represent individuals; they represent companies who will pay their commissions. As with any sales organization, the more (resume's) they have to present to a company, the greater the likelihood of placement success. While this arrangement is extremely profitable for the "agency," it leaves individual job seekers out of the equation when time (finding a job) is of the essence. A successful agency attracts new applicants daily, which become additional competition for the few job openings typically represented.

As one writer stated, his company only uses Monster.com & Craig’s List when searching or advertising for viable applicants. If this is a successful recruitment venue for his company, great. However, what about the ten’s of thousands of positions that are never advertised OR are advertised on company boards or otherwise, that the job seeker knows nothing about? If one doesn’t know a particular company exists, it’s impossible to access potential opportunities. To gain entrée to companies, identify potential opportunities, develop an ongoing relationship, etc., it takes time, personnel & money. Networking and marketing are expensive, and an on going pursuit that may not be fruitful for months or years. None the less, it is the business of the marketing company (JLK-A) to implement daily, weekly, monthly & annual pursuits on behalf of our clients today and for the future. In effect, it was yesterday’s work that provides the opportunities for our clients today!


Mrs. Coble wrote ad nausea, about the careful design of strong arm tactics by an eccentric grandmother, emasculation of her husband, exploitation & vulnerability. Think about this. Why, did the Coble’s come to JLK-A in the first place? To spend so much time and effort devising an angry, adversarial “game plan” prior to arrival was guaranteed to result in nothing positive or productive. Did I state the facts to Mr. & Mrs. Coble? Yes. When I explained the challenges in any career search, I also told Mr. Coble what I believed his challenges and opportunities to be. I concede, without benefit of a crystal ball, I could not speak to specific positions or companies, as it had yet to be determined exactly WHAT Mr. Coble wants to do. As an organization we are to be faulted for his lack of specific focus? Mr. Coble was unemployed because he quit his former position…in excess of 6 weeks before he was interviewed by JLK-A. The circumstances of this unemployment would indicate that direction is an issue. Also, his former salary was $20,000 less than his career high, so it would indicate as a job seeker Mr. Coble has had difficulty with sustained upward mobility. Could we help him, yes – but the Coble’s were so steadfast in their paranoia that this will never happen. Finally, when asked what he would like to do, Mr. Coble responded, “I would like JLK-A to assist me with those aspects of identifying and accessing career opportunities that I’m unable to accomplish myself. Specifically, to help identify companies and positions that will be a good fit with my skills, experience and personality, and to assist in opening the doors to exploring these opportunities.” I know of no resource (anywhere) that would/could address these issues free of any cost.

The only fear tactic was in the mind of blog hostess. I presented the fee in a direct and succinct manner. No hocus-pocus, no fairy dust. It is what it is. We do a job, we get paid. When asked questions, they were answered – directly and without trickery.

To respond to the “bring the spouse” tirade is almost comical but apparently there is a gross misconception perpetuated here. A career search affects everyone in a household. NO spouse is going to make a decision regarding his/her career without the full support of his/her spouse. Additionally, if there are problems at home, the likelihood of a completely successful search is greatly diminished. (i.e., accepting a position simply to placate one’s spouse, etc). These are issues we need to know BEFORE we accept a candidate as a client. As a company we are not predisposed to getting in the middle of a spousal fray, where the potential “settling” for a lesser position could result in OUR client not realizing his/her full potential – ultimately unhappy. Further, it is helpful to know the opinion (as it relates to the candidates career) of the spouse. No smoke, no mirrors – it simply makes sense! For the reasons mentioned above – we never consider a candidate without meeting the spouse (and in this day and time significant other/fiancé/my baby’s daddy/etc., applies).

For the record, the gentleman who arrived without his spouse was NOT chastised in front of the Coble’s, nor was it staged. That comment is simply stupid.

To suggest that JLK-A has some inside track with the Internal Revenue Service, or has any idea if, or how much, a person receives in tax refund is a ludicrous statement. Not only is individual tax information NOT public, it would take a hacker of Herculean talent to delve into the IRS files. Stupid.

There is a Peace quilt hanging on the wall in my office. Every square was handmade by a different person, assembled by a volunteer/reader and sponsored by Midwest Living Magazine. Once completed (and there were 20 quilts), individually they were auctioned to the highest bidders. Every dime raised was donated to the survivor families of 9-11. This is not a vintage or antique quilt that would command huge money in any selling venue. I personally paid a large sum of money at auction for this quilt as the proceeds went for a good cause. It hangs in my office because it helps me remember that terrible day and my money helped families in need. With few exceptions, every person entering my office has commented favorably on it. The auction tags, quilt sponsor and quilt assembler continue to hang on the back. BTW – all 20 quilts hung on display for one year at the Mall of America’s in Minnesota. Mrs. Coble’s spiteful meanness precluded her from asking me about it. The Raphael Cherubs are my fancy (as is the Vintage Victorian NOT Oriental rug) – I plan to see the original Cherubs in Italy this summer. Mrs. Coble was so free to criticize my surroundings – she would die if she saw my beyond eclectic, antique filled home! Wonder what hers’ looks like?!

In conclusion, to those of you who hastily jumped on the JLK-A bashing band- wagon…have you checked out the instigator? Do a Google search on Katherine Coble! She is an angry, opinionated basher of many things – and you might not like her positions either. Never in my life have I felt with such conviction to defend my company, my boss or my ethics. In this case, you, all of you are wrong in your assumptions about JLK-A. Don’t be lead by a negative, attention seeking, unhappy individual who is going through a rough time. Being unemployed and nearly broke would make anyone unhappy. However, an opinion, stated as such is fine. Hers’ was not an opinion, she fabricated quotes, invented an atmosphere that did not exist and led all of you. She lied…pure and simple. Those of you who have made and cancelled an appointment, I wish you luck in your career search. Not knowing the “facts” about my company and believing all this drivel is really your loss. KRM.

 
At 11:29 AM, April 07, 2007, Blogger Kat Coble said...

I did not lie. I did not fabricate quotes.

I am not nearly broke.

Criticism of my home and my husband's job is exactly what I'd expect from these people.

My 'spiteful meanness' did not prevent me from asking about the quilt. My complete lack of interest and the fact that we were not there to talk about quilts kept me from asking about the quilt.

 
At 6:14 PM, April 07, 2007, Blogger Kat Coble said...

Further comments on this post can be found at

my new blog

 
At 3:40 PM, April 08, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This blog was very helpful in hammering in what I already felt I knew about this company.

I'm currently in the OKC area, I'm employed with a 6 figure income but with my recent grad school graduation I decided to toss my resume out and see what surfaces. I've been contacted via email twice from these people. Both times I said it straight about how I feel about recruiters that charge the employee to find them a job. Anyhow to make a long story short I'm extremely brash with these types and people and have no interest ever working with a company such as this.

The extremely long write up from the JL Kirk employee just shows what kind of nonesense goes on at that joint.

 
At 6:15 PM, April 11, 2007, Blogger Synova said...

The reason for absolutely requiring a Support Person present is that someone being subjected to a hard sell who doesn't have that person there will almost always ask to have time to discuss it with their Support Person and get back to them later.

And they will almost always decide not to pay.

Because the item or services are not worth it.

If they were worth it, going home for a "discuss and get back to you" would result in a sale.

BTW, I got here through links starting at Instapundit. A whole lot of people are seeing this right now.

Placement agencies and headhunters take payment from the hiring companies for the same reasons that literary agents and editors take their fees from actual sales. It's just too easy to prey on people's hopes and fears and collect their money without doing anything for them.

If someone is confident they can sell you (or your book, etc.,) they will be happy and comfortable to take their payment when that sale is made. No sale, no fee.

An honest person *might* set up a business the other way around not realizing that their business model is one used by scammers and crooks.

Good luck on the job hunt. There are few things less fun or less emotionally exhausting. Hang in there.

 
At 6:18 PM, April 11, 2007, Blogger Mark said...

Head hunters, recruiters, and employment agencies are commissioned sales organizations. Their commission is generally 20-40% of first year gross income. Commonly, the employer will write the check. However, ONLY at the very highest levels of employment (CEO, President, COO, CFO, etc.) does the company actually PAY for the service.

This is a blantant falsehood. I don't know if it was a willful misrepresentation or ignorance, but headhunter fees are not generally paid by reducing the applicant's salary. The hiring firm pays the fees as a business expense. Think about it; how would a firm using a headhunter otherwise be able to offer competetive salaries and hire the best employees? Any candidate willing to work for 20-40% under market would have to be a moron, unqualified, stupid or all the above. How in the Sam Hill does that make any sense at all?

If this is indicative of the "sales job" you put on her, then I don't think she's too far off the mark.

By the way, great move suing her - you sure earned yourself some national exposure. Dingbat.

 
At 7:52 PM, April 11, 2007, Blogger Mark said...

I think they threatened to sue you because they are afraid of getting sued over their employee's letter!

 
At 9:05 PM, April 11, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess everyone's read bill hobbs and a couple other biggies by now and has figured out that it's all over but the shouting. In all likelihood these guys have destroyed themselves.

I'd like to reassure the poster hiding behind the "pseudo name" of "Eccentric Matronly Grandmother"
that if the suit proceeds (it won't) the facts she wants to bring out to support the 90% success rate, the formula for figuring the fees, and so forth will indeed be brought out. A system is in place to support all these disclosures with subpoenas, testimony under oath, and the like. No worry there.

That law firm has really earned it's money this day, huh?

 
At 9:19 PM, April 11, 2007, Blogger isaidso said...

This is funny beyond words; I wondered what had happened to Bernard Haldane since I haven't seen them advertising in the newspapers for a while.

Since graduating with an MBA from Michigan in 1993, I've been placed in two different jobs by executive recruiters; and I've also talked with many other recruiters. In every instance these recruiters were commission by large corporations to conduct searches. In the two jobs I accepted, I certainly did not suffer a cut in compensation; in fact quite the opposite. I would caution anyone to stay clear of outfits like Haldane/Kirk.

 
At 9:25 PM, April 11, 2007, Blogger isaidso said...

Oh, and by the way...why are you receiving large tax refunds anyway?

The law allows you to file a W-4 once a quarter so that you can adjust your tax-witholding to minimize over-payments to the government. $5,000 or whatever is an awful lot of money to give the federal government as an interest-free loan.

 
At 10:12 PM, April 11, 2007, Anonymous geoff said...

My wife did the Haldane thing many years ago - it was completely useless, and they did only a fraction of what they said they would do. At least they didn't require spousal attendance back then.

 
At 6:45 AM, April 12, 2007, Blogger Wave Maker said...

While the matronly grandmother did a game job of responding here, the one thing she didn't address was the tactic of asking for the chunk of money to be put on the credit card right then and there. Dead giveaway.

 
At 8:39 AM, April 12, 2007, Blogger Rob said...

An Honest Satirical Look at Employment Firms

It is no surprise that you went through an experience like this. Because our society places such a high value on money, it drives some people to do whatever is necessary to get you to hand them your money. Some groups will go so far as to use high powered lobbyists to pay and encourage Congress and State Legislatures to pass laws guaranteeing them the right to your money.

If we want to drive, we are forced to pay for insurance. If we need utilities, we pay the utility company's fees and taxes for them, and they have had laws made giving them the right to collect their government taxes and fees from us, the consumers. However we cannot charge them fees for being good customers. No surprise there.

 
At 8:40 AM, April 12, 2007, Blogger Jeremy said...

Wow, Matronly Grandmother. You write a detailed post of your own, with little tidbits thrown in to bring Coble down and boost JLK, and towards the end you top it all off with a 9/11 reference. It takes balls to use that date to bolster yourself.

Anyway, how long does it take from the moment of payment to find a client a job?

 
At 8:47 AM, April 12, 2007, Blogger John said...

Although I feel bad for them for choosing a lousy placement firm, I fail to see how they were deceived. They had every opportunity to ask questions, ask for a written contract and review the contract before engaging the firm. Nobody forced them to fork over the money and from what I can tell they never asked questions before handing over the cash. Did they ask for references? No. Did they seek out other placement firms to compare fees before forking over 5k? No. Instead of doing the smallest modicum of research they just handed over 5k to a stranger. Great idea. I hand out money to strangers all the time. Any person with half a brain (or an working internet connection)should know that you never front money to a reputable headhunter. It doesn't work that way. They get paid when you get placed. Had these people called a reputable placement firm they could have found this out in 5 minutes. Ah, but who has time for pesky research when riches and prosperity can be yours for $5,000? Besides the fact that these people performed no due diligence whatsoever prior to walking into the building, the reps themselves gave obvious warning signs to stay away. How could the stunt with the person who didn't bring a family member(which seems to have been clearly orchestrated) not have set off huge red flags in your mind? No professional would ever berate someone in front of another potential client and I don't understand why you would choose to do business with someone like that. But again, they did no research, never checked with other companies, missed every obvious red flag, asked no relevant questions, never asked for a contract, never had it reviewed, but they are surprised that they got screwed? What happened to personal responsibility? You wouldn't hand over 5k to someone knocking on your door, so why to someone in a cheesy office (their description, not mine)pushing a hard sell? They were greedy, thats why. All they saw were the promises of riches and were blinded by their ambition and tossed common sense to the wayside. They have no one to blame but themselves for this. Sorry if this seems harsh, but people need to start thinking for themselves and asking questions of those who would take their money for dubious services. This should be a lesson to investigate before giving money to anyone. These people need to accept that they got taken, in large part because of their own self-imposed ignorance instead of placing all the blame on the company. Remember, nobody forced them to do anything....they got greedy and got taken for a ride by someone more greedy than them.

 
At 8:50 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Offtopic, slightly, I ask for your indulgence.

So you consider asking the money after badgering you with fear to be unethical.

And I agree.

Consider then how lawyers operate.

At least with Kirk, you were able to walk away without paying a dime.

A lawyer will give you the same pitch, AND charge you for that first appointment.

Now, most people that need a lawyer are vulnerable, probably a bit scared already, and probably don't have a lot of money. And the lawyers will probably be the first to tell you how crucial it is for you to find a good lawyer and one that you can work with and be honest and open with.

So what are the ethics of demanding money for that first hour interview with a lawyer?

It almost certainly makes sure that the clients find it difficult to interview lawyers until they find one that meets their needs. And having paid the money, it sets up all sorts of confirmation biases where the person that pays wants to believe (regardless of the facts) that the lawyer is doing a good job.

So Kirk, completely unethical, and still, far more ethical than lawyers.

Sigh.

Best wishes to you folks, looking for a good job (much less a career) is really not a whole lot of fun these days.

 
At 8:55 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous scammed-in-mass said...

I wonder how many of these scam organizations are out there. I myself fell victim to the predatory promises of a Boston-based firm called R.L. Stevens. I read through your account and was struck that our experiences were virtually identical, except for the name of the company involved. I "invested" over $5,000 in the R.L. Stevens scam, and all I got out of it was a very expensive resume rewrite.

 
At 8:58 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There isn't much to discuss here really. This company is obviously a con, preying on the unemployed. Legitimate head hunters and recruiters do not charge those they are attempting to place fees - ever. The company pays the fees. As an employer, who uses these companies, I can tell you that most of them are scam artists and you have to be careful which ones you choose to assist you in finding qualified candidates. A 30-40% fee is exhorbitant. 20-25% is more the standard and ,no, any company worth working for is not going to reduce the emploee's salary to cover the fee.

 
At 9:11 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hate to tell you that in 2001, I was approached by either thatg company or a very similar one to it. When the money issue came up I laughed, thanked them for wasting my time and called them theives. After the comment their faces didnt even twitch nor show any surprise.

 
At 9:13 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And for what it is worth, living in St. Paul, and walking in the Mall of America on a regular basis, I call also attest that the Peace quilts, while they WERE displayed at the Mall of America, it was for at most a month, and I think actually more likely 2 weeks, certainly not for an entire year.

 
At 9:19 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Une Yunslob said...

Great rant there John. The only problem is that you obviously didn't read the article very carefully. She DIDN'T fork over the $5k, she and her husband left. The 'lead' they pursued was attending the interview.

I would suggest that next time you actually make sure you know what you are talking about before you embark on a long winded rant to tell someone how stupid they are. It might just save your from looking like an asshole.

 
At 9:30 AM, April 12, 2007, Blogger John said...

Initial consultation with lawyers is much, much different (I am one) here's why:
Lawyers lives (for better or for worse) are ruled by the billable hour. Our time is our product, we don't make money selling cars or repairing watches, time and experience are the products we sell. Say you bill a modest $200/hr (at least in NY) and do three consultations a day. During the consultation, if the attorney is any good, they should spend at least an hour getting an extensive history of your issue, discussing the law and offer possible courses of action. A good lawyer should supply real, useful information to a potential client during an initial interview. Since that hour spend with the client is time that I couldn't spend working on another file, the lawyer shouldn't eat that hour of work. Say the lawyer doesn't charge for this and does 2-3 a day (which many lawyers do). Thats $400-600 A DAY in lost business. You wouldn't expect a plumber to spend an hour in your house for free, would you? So why is it any different for a lawyer? In any event, many lawyers recognize that potential clients get put off by consultation fees, so most only charge them in certain types of cases and they always tell the client up front that they will be billed so there are no surprises. Nothing unethical about that.

 
At 9:35 AM, April 12, 2007, Blogger John said...

Okay, so they didn't pay. Minor detail that wasn't the point of my post. The fact that you focused on that one irrelevant issue shows you didn't understand the purpose of the post. And since you failed to rebut any of the points I made your comment looks more like an attack against the speaker than the content. The point of their story was about the supposedly deceptive practices and my post was in response to that. The fact they didn't turn over the money is irrelevant to the question of whether the practices of the company were legit. Who's the a-hole now?

 
At 9:44 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Tanya said...

Unbelieveable. My husband was on a job search about a year ago and we had headhunters calling all the time. Not a single one ever wanted to charge any sort of "fee" to my husband and if they ever did try that sort of garbage we would have told them to jump off a cliff.

Now this "placement firm" is threatening you with cease and desist letters and whatnot. Cretinous, really. I know that if I ever look for a job in Tennessee (not likely, I admit), I will know precisely what firm to avoid, not due to your post, but to their actions. I hate people who try to use the courts to intimidate people and shut them up. These people reek.

 
At 10:09 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous PA Dave said...

In regard to John's response to une yuslob:
I read your post, and I believe une yuslob was succinct and correct is his/her response to you. You went on and on about how this couple could have saved their "5k" by doing research, making a phone call, and asking relevant questions. However, all your drivel could have been saved had YOU read the original post more carefully to see that the couple realized what they would be getting in to, and kept their money, without having to go through all the additional things you mentioned. The fact that they didn't hand over their cash was NOT "one irrelevant issue," as you stated. The fact that you missed that key bit of information negated your castigating of the couple, and became the main point.

 
At 10:15 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I work for a recruitment firm and we never charge our candidates a dime, despite helping place them in their $100K+ jobs. The money comes entirely from our client companies. There are no magical, secret jobs. Some companies hire using ads in the paper or on the internet, and some companies come to firms like ours to find qualified candidates. Some companies do both.

 
At 10:27 AM, April 12, 2007, Blogger Lee Rudnicki said...

Paying a head hunter in advance is generally not a good idea.

 
At 10:54 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You've been Farked, so it's REALLY gonna get some milage now!

 
At 10:59 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Technodaoist said...

I was 'interviewed' by these shysters back when they were Haldane... Your experience is almost a carbon copy of mine, with the exception that it was only 3300 bucks...

This was approx 4 - 5 years ago, and I had been looking for a 'real' job since the golden age of the internet had gone bust in aught-one...

Fortunately, I had nearly 3 years experience being conned and taken advantage of (thankfully for nothing as serious as 3 grand), so red flags started going off everywhere...

Moral of the story: NEVER pay someone for a promise. Verbal reassurances mean nothing, and everything agreed upon should be seen in writing...

That seems obvious and logical - but as you said, when fear and emotional distress are used against you, it can be easy to forget logic.

 
At 11:00 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

While I believe that everyone has a right to defend themselves against libel, the "Eccentric Grandmother" did her company and herself a disservice by disclosing personal information about the Cobles. That's not very professional, regardless of the provocation.

It only proves the original point of the original posting.

 
At 11:02 AM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The "Support Person" has the same purpose as requiring your spouse to be with your to attend a "Time Share Hardsell". In my three decades of employment(occasionally via headhunter), no recruiter or company ever spoke a word to my spouse. My'spouse's employers have also failed to speak to me (and I have all the dirt!). Many states have right of recision laws granting a couple days to cancel major deals like a new car, house, or mortgage refinance. Giving the hard sell to the "Support Person" helps prevent a call to the credit card company as soon as you hear the last echo of "YOU DID WHAT!"

 
At 11:54 AM, April 12, 2007, Blogger CS said...

Couple of things, and I used to do recruiting.

1. NEVER pay a company a fee for getting you a job. There are plenty of contingency firms out there that will work with you for free.

2. Getting a job thru a contingency firm WILL NOT lower your starting salary. The fees are paid from different lines in the company budget.

3. I don't know how mad I would be over the support person requirement. This is a major purchase for most people, and their spouse SHOULD be involved in teh decision.

4. But most of the onus here is on you. We live in a country with 4.4% unemployment. You have a blog. You have to know this. You might think the rep was a snake oil salesman, but s/he probably did feel that they were helping you out because you are obviously too naive to investigate different methods to get a job on your own.

 
At 12:13 PM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The company's condescending retort was the nail in the coffin for me. They provided no metrics to prove their success, only the "liar liar pants on fire" defense decorated with flowery language and some outright falsehoods. Interestingly enough, their website echoes this nebulous, self-promotional style. Their tagline of (p) "50 years experience in job placement", implying they've been successfull placing people in jobs for 50 years, turns out to be a collective 50 years of generic experience in the industry by some undefined group of people who run the company.

To the falsehoods... Companies pay headhunter fees to hire employees every day. And we're not talking about 6-figure executives. We're talking about every professional position imaginable. Many large companies feel it is a better use of their resources to pay someone else to sift through their candidates than do it themselves... Largely from a "let the professionals handle it" perspective. As someone else said, it's a cost of doing business. I have DIRECT experience, from both sides of the coin, with University of Colorado Hospital. Not only was I brought in through a headhunter, which UCH paid for, we repeated this process with a great number of middle-tier professionals during my 3+ years in their employ.

While I won't go as far as assuming these people are fraudulent, they ARE the moral equivalent of used car salesmen. Their tactics speak for themselves.

My advice... Go with a real recruiter who charges the prospective employers. In fact, go with several of them. And continue the search on your own also. It's a long and scary road, but the it's the nature of job seeking.

Don't pay good money for some nebulous "secret database". If they've got something better than any of the other head hunters, let them show proof. Otherwise call it for the hype it likely is.

 
At 12:15 PM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

All it takes is a quick look at the Better Business Bureau website. Always do this with any company that you are paying more than $100.

http://data.middletennessee.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=37011228

 
At 12:21 PM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

By the way... BBB does show that JL Kirk branches other than middle Tennessee have a better statuses ("satisfactory"). You just had the bad luck to find the poo in the pile of leaves :-).

 
At 1:08 PM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

contactus@jlkirkassociates.com

This is no longer a working email address. Maybe this shit hole went out of business? hjaahahahaha

 
At 1:10 PM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nashville, TN
5141 Virginia Way,
Suite 230
Brentwood, TN 37027
Tel: 615-376-4650

 
At 1:12 PM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2734495

Posted to the main page of Fark.com - There's nothing getting the Kat back into the bag now (pun intended). Thank you so much for posting this.

 
At 2:12 PM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most every sales pitch out there preys on people's fears and insecurities.

I don't like that, but it's reality. You had the choice to not go through with things, but you did.

Caveat emptor.

 
At 2:21 PM, April 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't stop laughing! Kat - I truly sympathize with you, and I'm impressed with your courage in being public about these scam artists.

As for the con men - and yeah, that's what you are - just how stupid are you?

Did you REALLY use phrase "ad nausea" (sic) right